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The DNA exclusionary rule in the case of this movie is called a McGuffin, a term coined by Alfred Hitchcock describing a plot element used as a device to launch the action of the movie. Usually dropped once the movie is underway. As a matter of fact the TV show(s) Law & Order uses ripped from the headlines McGuffin’s that are usually abandoned for a plot twist that ends up being the real case featured in the show.

The only lose plot element that bothered me was the time frame at the end of the movie, somehow Nick and Dunnigan, get back to prison transporting an explosive device, set up the explosive device while Clyde is stuck in traffic and yet somehow Nick and Dunnigan avoid the same traffic jam that delays Clyde. My guess is they may have been transported via helicopter. But no explanation is offered.

Edited by Rubee815

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The DNA exclusionary rule in the case of this movie is called a McGuffin, a term coined by Alfred Hitchcock describing a plot element used as a devise to launch the action of the movie. Usually dropped once the movie is underway. As a matter of fact the TV show(s) Law & Order uses ripped from the headlines McGuffin’s that are usually abandoned for a plot twist that ends up being the real case featured in the show.

The only lose plot element that bothered me was the time frame at the end of the movie, somehow Nick and Dunnigan, get back to prison transporting an explosive devise, set up the explosive devise while Clyde is stuck in traffic and yet somehow Nick and Dunnigan avoid the same traffic jam that delays Clyde. My guess is they may have been transported via helicopter. But no explanation is offered.

Yes, that is a bit tricky. Well, although I didn't think much of it at at the time, this is my post-hoc justification for that situation: The traffic that Clyde encountered was really a police cordon checking people's IDs because they knew that Clyde was somewhere in the vicinity. I think Nick and Dunnigan, as police, could have made their way through that quickly. Plus, Clyde has a fair amount of preparations to do in his underground tunnel before emerging in the cell above. They don't show the time it takes him to change clothes, although that had to have been something. Yeah, it seems like an inconsistency, but another place where you can suspend disbelief.

Steph

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The problem with the DNA thing is that it doesn't hold up. There would have been plenty of DNA to prosecute Darby, especially since he raped both the wife and daughter.

You're right in your assertion regarding DNA; however, in a jury trial (remember the DNA testimony in the OJ trial?) it would be up to the jury to convict, not the evidence. The DNA would have been grounds to bind Darby over for trial (if the judge was in the mood to believe science instead of legal mumbo-jumbo), but the rest would have been up to a jury. Defense attorneys would have argued that the evidence had been contaminated (OJ), that Clyde didn't really see what he thought he saw (Nick's assertion that Clyde blacked out), etc.

I didn't have to suspend disbelief at all on this point. I've actually seen juries ignore DNA evidence and actually acquit even when the rest of the evidence showed what I believed was overwhelming guilt.

In addition, as (I think) Steph said, judges are supposed to rule based on the letter of the law. The truth is, they don't. As the judge in the movie said, "I can do pretty much whatever I want to." and they do. (My lawyer actually said exactly the same thing to me once.)

It really isn't even about what you can prove in court, it's about how your lawyer can twist facts to add another case to his/her win column. The US justice system as a whole commands suspension of disbelief.

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Wow! Thank you for this great discussion and further insight into the justice system. I

can't believe I know so little about something so very important. As for the movie, like

Swannie, I would have liked more character development, but the genre being a thriller,

I thought it was very well done. I felt the issues mentioned above were well covered

by the brief, but powerful scenes we were shown. The look on Clyde's face and in his

eyes told the story--at least for me. For me, and it seems for the majority, the movie

told the story quite adequately! Maybe even brilliantly! I say "Bravo," to Gerry, Gary,

the cast and crew who created this first film for Evil Twins.j

Judy

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Wow! Thank you for this great discussion and further insight into the justice system. I

can't believe I know so little about something so very important. As for the movie, like

Swannie, I would have liked more character development, but the genre being a thriller,

I thought it was very well done. I felt the issues mentioned above were well covered

by the brief, but powerful scenes we were shown. The look on Clyde's face and in his

eyes told the story--at least for me. For me, and it seems for the majority, the movie

told the story quite adequately! Maybe even brilliantly! I say "Bravo," to Gerry, Gary,

the cast and crew who created this first film for Evil Twins.j

Judy

My DH and I were talking about this last night. This is Gerry and Alan's first outing as producers; can you imagine what they have in the pipeline? :bow: Frankly, it's about time some really good entertainment came out of Hollyweird. We were speculating about what the end product would be if Evil Twins was handling the production of Burns. I'm not sure my heart could stand it. :wuv:

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I must say I enjoyed the movie very much, but I can see some of the points stated by the critics as true. The last 15 minutes are a bit anti-climax, and I feel that, there should have been more Clyde's schemes and strategies up until the end. The Nick and Dunnigan's discover should be sent to the very last and after Clyde was gone.

Also, how cool it would be if Chester was really Clyde, and it was he who sent the message, more plots and schemes would be available for the story. How frustrating that the character that really gives the important clue to the all mystery is never seen!

All I'm saying is that the thrillers I enjoyed the best are the ones that the psychopath finishes its master piece, like "hannibal lecter" and "seven".

As a side note: I really enjoyed Gerry's performance, the best performance he ever made, compared only to the top actors Anthony Hopkins and Kevin Spacey. Well done.

Hugs, CQ

Ps: I understood all of the legalities implied in the movie. As a viewer of "law and order", I can relate to all the proceedings and evidence gathering in the American Judicial System, shown in the movie.

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I didn't see Hannibal Lecter at all in Clyde. I know that Gerry was worried about just that comparison and consciously made an effort to minimize the parallels, and I think it worked. I mean, I can see a loose comparison because they're both murderers behind bars who continue to flummox the authorities, but that's really all. Hannibal Lecter didn't have an ongoing scheme when he was incarcerated, he was merely used as a tool in solving other crimes. Sure, he kind of played with the police by not giving them the whole solution at once, but there was never any sustained tet a tet in any of the Silence of the Lambs movies as there was in LAC. Plus, Lecter, while being brilliant, obviously had some mental health issues (he ATE people!). Clyde was definitely not insane, and to the contrary, every one of his actions were calculated to bring about an extremely rational end.

Steph

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I didn't see Hannibal Lecter at all in Clyde. I know that Gerry was worried about just that comparison and consciously made an effort to minimize the parallels, and I think it worked. I mean, I can see a loose comparison because they're both murderers behind bars who continue to flummox the authorities, but that's really all. Hannibal Lecter didn't have an ongoing scheme when he was incarcerated, he was merely used as a tool in solving other crimes. Sure, he kind of played with the police by not giving them the whole solution at once, but there was never any sustained tet a tet in any of the Silence of the Lambs movies as there was in LAC. Plus, Lecter, while being brilliant, obviously had some mental health issues (he ATE people!). Clyde was definitely not insane, and to the contrary, every one of his actions were calculated to bring about an extremely rational end.

Steph

I agree. It never ever occured to me to draw any similarities between the two. Hannibal was a psychopath and sociopath, plus other mental issues. He was a monster. I don't feel that the two movies have anything in common.

I love watching Gerry; love how he can express his feelings so accurately. His face talks and draws my attention 100%.

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The only Hannibal comparison that I can see what that his family was murdered and tortured right in front of him when he was very young but he made it his lifes mission to exact revenge and it took his soul to some very horrific place.I've seen it 4x now and it took him 10 years to set his plan in motion,very methodical and very patient he was.I'm gonna wait for the dvd now maybe just maybe I might go for 1 more time this weekend.The TUT dvd will be here soon I hope they make a part 2 for that....

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At the end I liked that we didn't see Clyde suffer - I think Gary and Gerry probably realized that the audience would end up on Clyde's side. I believe Clyde somewhat admired Nick for outsmarting him at the end and he just sat there and waited for the inevitable. What I did feel bad about on a more spiritual level was the belief that if there is a heaven and a hell surely Clyde as NOT about to be reunited with his wife and daughter in the afterlife. That made me feel sad, unless he made his ammends to God during those moment before the flames engulfed him.

[/color]

Susan, your above quote hit the nail on the head for me.This is where my mind was going too. Like you I felt sad on a more spiritual level. Clyde had latched onto some real bad Karma here and as they say " thru the baby out with the bath water". I felt sad ,but thought Clyde had one last chance to be with his family when he " got the picture" and the bead evaported for a moment to disclose the message from his daughter ...dad why (Y). Hope they all three are together forever. This movie was a bit upsetting for me to view with the high level of violence and all.

Edited by planetwalkers

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We didn't see Clyde die. He was too smart and always one step ahead.

I would liked to have seen Clyde sitting at the back of the room during Nick's daughter's recital, clapping his hands and smiling. But, hey, that's just me.

Delene

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At the end, Clyde definitely showed his admiration toward Nick for finding out his secret; he smiled when he realized that the bomb was there. This last scene is heartbreaking and beautiful.

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I felt sad ,but thought Clyde had one last chance to be with his family when he " got the picture" and the bead evaported for a moment to disclose the message from his daughter ...dad why (Y). Hope they all three are together forever. This movie was a bit upsetting for me to view with the high level of violence and all.

Seriously? The bracelet spelled out, "dad "y" I totally missed that. I've only seen it once so far. Wow.

Swannie

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I felt sad ,but thought Clyde had one last chance to be with his family when he " got the picture" and the bead evaported for a moment to disclose the message from his daughter ...dad why (Y). Hope they all three are together forever. This movie was a bit upsetting for me to view with the high level of violence and all.

Seriously? The bracelet spelled out, "dad "y" I totally missed that. I've only seen it once so far. Wow.

Swannie

Swannie, at the end one of the Ds is just twisted a little bit so there's a glare on it. The letters are all still there. I've not heard that it was intentional.

ETA Actually I think it's the A that's twisted and you see D DDY

Edited by Rendita

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Overall, I thought it was a very solid movie. I don't regret the $8.50 I spent on the ticket and I'd recommend it to a friend. Overall, I give it an 8 out of 10. Ironically, saw the Rotten Tomatoes review on t.v. last night and was pretty shocked by their scathing review. Sure, it's not Oscar worthy, but certainly not a bad way to spend an evening if you're going out for a movie.

***********Pros.

* It kept me in suspense and traveled in a few directions I wasn't expecting. I never would have thought to do that with a steak...

* The acting was great.

* I didn't regret the $8.50 I spent on the ticket.

* Good visuals and special effects.

*Great Plot, despite a few writing pitfalls.

* One of the better Thriller movies of the year.

*This was an adult movie. I wasn't subjected to gratuitous amounts of gore. It stayed in the thriller genre and was well balanced.

*I'd recommend it to my father and to my best girl friend.

*I liked the fact they killed of Clyde in the end. It was a fitting death, despite the fact that I liked him. The whole death scene was really pretty visually awesome.

*cough* naked Gerry *cough*

********Cons.

*I thought the writing could have been a little better in some areas. Better writing would have pushed this movie to a higher level.

*I thought the scenes with the mayor were a little lame and too far removed from reality. I don't know of any mayor that would've been content to just let that situation lay in the hands of a D.A. That really bugged me.

* It should have been 10 minutes longer. We needed more visible internal conflict and the fleshing out of the main characters. We needed to get more attached to them as viewers. Maybe another pivotal scene with the Rice family and a few flashbacks for Clyde. Periodically, remind us why we we're rooting for these characters without being redundant. Make the characters a little more 3 dimensional.

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I felt sad ,but thought Clyde had one last chance to be with his family when he " got the picture" and the bead evaported for a moment to disclose the message from his daughter ...dad why (Y). Hope they all three are together forever. This movie was a bit upsetting for me to view with the high level of violence and all.

Seriously? The bracelet spelled out, "dad "y" I totally missed that. I've only seen it once so far. Wow.

Swannie

Swannie, at the end one of the Ds is just twisted a little bit so there's a glare on it. The letters are all still there. I've not heard that it was intentional.

Even if it wasn't intentional, it sure works with the storyline. :)

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I felt sad ,but thought Clyde had one last chance to be with his family when he " got the picture" and the bead evaported for a moment to disclose the message from his daughter ...dad why (Y). Hope they all three are together forever. This movie was a bit upsetting for me to view with the high level of violence and all.

Seriously? The bracelet spelled out, "dad "y" I totally missed that. I've only seen it once so far. Wow.

Swannie

Swannie, at the end one of the Ds is just twisted a little bit so there's a glare on it. The letters are all still there. I've not heard that it was intentional.

I had never seen it that way, and intentional or not, it's f&%*ing brilliant! Although kind of at odds with Clyde's statement in response to Nick's question about how his wife and daughter would feel about what he was doing: "My wife and daughter can't feel anything. They're dead." I loved that part by the way. Tells you a lot about Clyde's character.

Steph

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Overall, I thought it was a very solid movie. I don't regret the $8.50 I spent on the ticket and I'd recommend it to a friend. Overall, I give it an 8 out of 10. Ironically, saw the Rotten Tomatoes review on t.v. last night and was pretty shocked by their scathing review. Sure, it's not Oscar worthy, but certainly not a bad way to spend an evening if you're going out for a movie.

***********Pros.

* It kept me in suspense and traveled in a few directions I wasn't expecting. I never would have thought to do that with a steak...

* The acting was great.

* I didn't regret the $8.50 I spent on the ticket.

* Good visuals and special effects.

*Great Plot, despite a few writing pitfalls.

* One of the better Thriller movies of the year.

*This was an adult movie. I wasn't subjected to gratuitous amounts of gore. It stayed in the thriller genre and was well balanced.

*I'd recommend it to my father and to my best girl friend.

*I liked the fact they killed of Clyde in the end. It was a fitting death, despite the fact that I liked him. The whole death scene was really pretty visually awesome.

*cough* naked Gerry *cough*

********Cons.

*I thought the writing could have been a little better in some areas. Better writing would have pushed this movie to a higher level.

*I thought the scenes with the mayor were a little lame and too far removed from reality. I don't know of any mayor that would've been content to just let that situation lay in the hands of a D.A. That really bugged me.

* It should have been 10 minutes longer. We needed more visible internal conflict and the fleshing out of the main characters. We needed to get more attached to them as viewers. Maybe another pivotal scene with the Rice family and a few flashbacks for Clyde. Periodically, remind us why we we're rooting for these characters without being redundant. Make the characters a little more 3 dimensional.

What areas in particular were you disappointed with the writing? And was it the dialogue, or the storyline? Elaborate please; I'm curious!

I agree that the movie should have been about 10 minutes longer, though not necessarily for character development. I tend to think of 2 hours as about ideal for a movie, and Gerry's last 4 movies or so have been hovering closer to 1hr 45min. And then the DVDs show up and there are always a few good deleted scenes on them, and I find myself wishing they'd kept them in.

Steph

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What areas in particular were you disappointed with the writing? And was it the dialogue, or the storyline? Elaborate please; I'm curious!

SPOILERS

It was a little of both but mostly storyline. One example of dialogue was the scene with the mayor, which I already listed. Her words didn't match the level of emotion she was portraying, resulting in a scene where Viola Harris over acts. It's not really the her fault unless she wrote the script.

The bit where Clyde sends the movie to the house was ill- fitting. It just sort of sat there like a badly baked biscuit. I felt, it was out of character for Clyde. They used it to motivate the character of Nick Rice but there had to be a better way of doing that more congruent to Clyde's genius personality. It had the potential to be this pivotal scene where Clyde tries to show Nick his pain as a father and husband but it fell flat.

The last 10 minutes were a little anticlimactic, as others have put it. I'd have like to see a little more action there. I thought an extra scene of Clyde Genius would have added to the overall X- factor of the movie.

Having the briefcase under the bed was totally awesome, though. Mad props for that little gem. I never saw it coming. Same for the phone bomb and the steak bone.

There were others but now my memory is getting fuzzy so I'll have to watch it again. :p To be fair, I could dissect any movie in the same way. None are perfect, KWIM? LAC great and if this movie is any indication of what Evil Twins can do, I'm totally excited to see what's next!

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CW - I think your observations are great. It would have been great to see more emotion from Clyde at the end. Oh, and the bracelet thing I'm sure was NOT on purpose.

I agree with Viola Davis. "I"m not having this conversation." That was totally overacted, and really unnecessary. I also don't think the scene of her with the counsel was too great, "Why is Clyde Shelton still in my city?" Cause he's in your prison system!

Critics aside, on Twitter I'm seeing nothing but positive things about this movie from the movie-goers. 99% say Gerry was outstanding; some are saying Jamie was a bit dry. So far everyone loves it. So much for stupid critics opinions.

I honestly loved the ending, but felt there was no need to see Nick at the recital. That served no purpose for me. Once Clyde was gone, that was the end of the movie for me, and not because it's Gerry. Because what else was there to say? Other than Nick murdered him. I guess showing that his life went on like normal says a lot.

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What areas in particular were you disappointed with the writing? And was it the dialogue, or the storyline? Elaborate please; I'm curious!

It was a little of both but mostly storyline. One example of dialogue was the scene with the mayor, which I already listed. Her words didn't match the level of emotion she was portraying, resulting in a scene where Viola Harris over acts. It's not really the her fault unless she wrote the script.

The bit where Clyde sends the movie to the house was ill- fitting. It just sort of sat there like a badly baked biscuit. I felt, it was out of character for Clyde. They used it to motivate the character of Nick Rice but there had to be a better way of doing that more congruent to Clyde's genius personality. It had the potential to be this pivotal scene where Clyde tries to show Nick his pain as a father and husband but it fell flat.

The last 10 minutes were a little anticlimactic, as others have put it. I'd have like to see a little more action there. I thought an extra scene of Clyde Genius would have added to the overall X- factor of the movie.

Having the briefcase under the bed was totally awesome, though. Mad props for that little gem. I never saw it coming. Same for the phone bomb and the steak bone.

There were others but now my memory is getting fuzzy so I'll have to watch it again. :p To be fair, I could dissect any movie in the same way. None are perfect, KWIM? LAC great and if this movie is any indication of what Evil Twins can do, I'm totally excited to see what's next!

I can see the bit about the Mayor. I don't necessarily think the dialogue led to her overacting, but I do kinda think the Mayor was a useless character. She really didn't add much to the story, it seemed to just be a nod to the reality that if there was something that big going on in a city, the Mayor would be involved (although more involved would be likely).

I dunno, I disagree about the rest of the stuff though. I guess I'm one of the few who didn't think that the last ten minutes was anti-climactic. I was engaged right til the very end, and I thought it moved quite quickly.

I also didn't see a problem with the DVD being sent to Nick's house. I don't think Clyde really intended the daughter to see it. I think it was also intended as a taunt to Nick because he literally had the crime on tape, yet had no evidence to implicate Clyde. Plus, this is a little more abstract, but the daughter wouldn't have seen it if Nick had gone to her recital, because they (arguably) wouldn't have needed to order the DVD of the performance. I think it had a dual meaning of showing that Nick's unwavering focus on his career hurt not only Clyde and those to whom justice was denied, but also his family.

I was so impressed by this movie that I have a hard time being critical of any part of it. Normally, no matter how much I like a movie I can pull out a couple of gripes, but I feel like everything in LAC flowed sooo well. I was so amazed by my reaction to LAC, too, because I had SUCH high expectations. Amazing. :)

Steph

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CW - I think your observations are great. It would have been great to see more emotion from Clyde at the end. Oh, and the bracelet thing I'm sure was NOT on purpose.

Thanks. I tend to shy away from critiquing these things because I'm no actor...lol! What do I know?

I agree with Viola Davis. "I"m not having this conversation." That was totally overacted, and really unnecessary. I also don't think the scene of her with the counsel was too great, "Why is Clyde Shelton still in my city?" Cause he's in your prison system!

Exactly. Viola Davis is a great actress. So, when I saw that scene I figured someone dropped the ball. All the actors were superb in this movie. When I saw what I felt were flaws, it wasn't in their performance it was with what they were given to say or do. Not many but that scene really bugged me.

Critics aside, on Twitter I'm seeing nothing but positive things about this movie from the movie-goers. 99% say Gerry was outstanding; some are saying Jamie was a bit dry. So far everyone loves it. So much for stupid critics opinions.

What was with the critics, anyway? I mean, I really am passionate about Gerry's career but I don't consider myself an uber fan. Not really (and there's nothing wrong with anyone who is :p ). However, I really felt they were filled with vitriol when reviewing this movie. It was a solid movie. Not going to win any Oscars but it wasn't bad in any way. Based on reviews, I was fearing the worst. They really roasted him over a spit on this one.

I honestly loved the ending, but felt there was no need to see Nick at the recital. That served no purpose for me. Once Clyde was gone, that was the end of the movie for me, and not because it's Gerry. Because what else was there to say? Other than Nick murdered him. I guess showing that his life went on like normal says a lot.

Yeah, it would have been better if we saw Clyde in the audience (I think someone already mentioned that). Ces't la vie, I suppose!

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Yeah, it would have been better if we saw Clyde in the audience (I think someone already mentioned that). Ces't la vie, I suppose!

Hee hee that would have been great! :lol: But I think Clyde died in the best way he could have - at his own genius. Just wish there had been a bit more remorse or emotion from him - but that's the writing, not Gerry.

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Yeah, it would have been better if we saw Clyde in the audience (I think someone already mentioned that). Ces't la vie, I suppose!

Hee hee that would have been great! :lol: But I think Clyde died in the best way he could have - at his own genius. Just wish there had been a bit more remorse or emotion from him - but that's the writing, not Gerry.

I think it would have been inconsistent with the rest of the story for Clyde to show remorse at the end. I truly don't think he was remorseful. I mean, there were times when you could see he was affected by the fact that he was killing some "innocent" people, but he seemed basically unwavering in his belief that he was doing the right thing. I liked how they did it... he basically resigned himself to his death. I also think that had a lot to do with the fact that he sort of won, in that he changed Nick's stance on bargaining with murderers.

Steph

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Oh I loved the ending. I just wonder if Clyde did feel some sense of remorse because he wasn't a killer in the sense that Darby was.

I think ending it with Clyde looking at the bracelet was perfect, with the flames surrounding him. It was perfect. It should have ended there.

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