Jump to content
Gerard Butler GALS

RAOUL OR PHANTOM?


Swansong
 Share

Recommended Posts

Ok, well,

Since I had such a hard time NOT yelling at the computer during the podcast, I have to share my thoughts!

First of all, I'll just go ahead and state my position - the Phantom. No ifs, ands, or buts. The Phantom ALL the way, baby.

The passion vs. safety point was very valid to me. I personally would choose passion. Yeah, it can come back to bite you in the arse, but then again, so can settling. I just personally couldn't live with myself if I chose safety over what could potentially be the love of my life. Whether or not it actually turns out to be the love of my life is sorta beside the point, and I'll deal with that later. But I felt NO passion between Raoul and Christine. I felt that he was protective, possessive, and clearly the old-school male role, but again, it was childhood sweetheart syndrome. I had a childhood sweetheart. I still love him. But I had to realize that my perceptions of him as a child were not necessarily the most clear. When you deal with a romance with a past like that, there are a bunch of emotions tied up, and with Christine, as so many of you have mentioned, that had a lot to do with her Father still being alive. (Not that she doesn't clearly have Daddy-Phantom issues as well, she does, admittedly). In my case, it's a darn good thing that I'm not with my childhood sweetheart. People change as they get older....Raoul is just the normal, safe choice for Christine. I don't see passion, and I don't see that he really loved her. I think he was just as controlling as Erik. Had he loved Christine as much as he thought, he'd have thought of another way to deal with the Phantom (or heck, just taken her away....)

But with the Phantom, the passion was palpable. The man was clearly scarred, but I think that he wanted to change. The reason why women think that they can change men and it doesn't work is because the man himself didn't want to change. But I think in this instance that Erik wanted to change. I think he was more than a little dissatisfied with his life and was truly asking for her help and her love. I just think that since he recieved little or no social skills, love, and compassion, that he didn't know how to change. I think that she could have helped him through her love and understanding to become a much healthier individual. And I think their relationship would have been a strong one. Not only based on mutual passion, but since both were fairly new at relationships, they could have learned together. Plus they shared passion for music, for art, etc. She loved him on many levels: lover, muse, teacher, father figure, son figure (needing a lot of care and love), friend, contemporary (in art).

I do think that she was a bit afraid of the Phantom. Totally understandable. He's more than a bit moody, unpredictable, and he's got a temper that is lethal (liturally). The man is a loose canon. But the only reason that I can give as to why this doesn't ruin the Phantom for me is that I think his actions were born of his pain, his lack of love as a child, and his total lack of understanding about what goes on in regular polite society. I don't think he was ever taught how to deal with his anger issues. Even his mother rejected him. Unless you are shown the correct way to behave, there's little way for you to know it. Plus, as he learned early in life, some of the struggles that he faced were really life-and-death. I can't blame him for murdering the circus guy. Buquet could have been justified, as he thought he was preying on the girls, including Christine. Piangi was a threat, but his death I do have to blame on Erik.

I also think that her unmasking him during PONR, while a betrayal, might also have been his salvation. At the end of the play, if he remained there, he could have been captured or killed. The only way for her to force him into action was to unmask him. So although she didn't necessarily know the consequences of her action, I think that she knew she had to do something. Because as much as she loved Raoul (and there are many types of love, I do believe she loved him, but in a different way), she also loved Erik. And she didn't want to see either man killed. And sorry, but no one can convince me that the girl was just acting the part of Aminta....she was clearly quite taken by the Phantom, not only in the PONR scene, but in MOTN and the Red Death scene.

However, I think that Christine was still very immature in some ways. She clearly didn't understand her pull towards the Phantom (those are hormones, babe....), and she was too scared by his temper to say what needed to be said in the lair when he pushed her down and yelled at her (i.e...."nobody pushes me, buster....now, about the mask, seriously, you don't need it...I'm interested in your heart and soul.....now....settle down, and meet me at the swan bed....wink wink!"). Likewise, Erik was just as immature (although I'm sorry, there was a bit too much Gerry in the MOTN scene...it's hard to believe that the man who handles Christine like he did is a virgin....hmmmmmm....). But I think that their love would have been strong enough to work past these issues.

Oh, and also, I agree with what the girls said before about the ring!!!!! Here's something to remember me by, baby! But I still don't get why she looked back at him during the end song if she was so sure of her decision to go with Raoul.....makes me think that more than a little bit of her wishes she'd have stayed behind to check out the springs on the swan bed..... :kisswink: )

Jen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 80
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Hey GALS--I've got a no-show, and like Dr. Em, I'm pretending to work.. :muahaha2: ...but a few quick thoughts:

Raoul's song of "she often spoke of you, my friend...your velvet lining and your figurine of lead..." is clearly about the monkey music box. Yet rather than the box signifying Erik's alter ego, as Swan suggested, I see it more as like the "Rosebud" sled to Erik--in this film, anyway, as we see in the Mme. Giry scene that when he's a boy in the sideshow, he has made a similar toy to keep himself company and comfort him. Not that he sees the monkey music box as hearkening back to simpler, nicer, more loving times (like Kane), but that little monkey toy was his only comfort during tortured times, and remains so even in the dungeon.

The ring...I'm still on the fence.

And I have to say--I'm always bothered in films when people leave refrigerator doors and front doors open and leave the scene, and I am always bothered when people leave expensive things on gravesites!!! Usually it's in the form of military medals, photos, etc... but I hate to see that music box and ring left out for the weather to ravage and graverobbers to steal! Every time I see it, I'm protesting loudly.

As for Raoul vs. Erik--even with all of the valid points made above, I still love Erik and would sacrifice anything for him. Maybe I like it "rough" sometimes, I don't know... :kinkilla: ...but I also believe in the power of love to heal. I was thinking over my lunch hour that the Phantom actually knows Christine a lot better than Raoul does, and her unusual upbringing with Dad does make him the more Oedipal choice--Erik is much more mystically-minded (like Dad) than Raoul. In addition, what Fiona said about the view of chorines in Victorian times supports my view that Christine would have done better with the Phantom (my projections on her, of course... :inlove: ) because she really is not from Raoul's world and may never have felt like she truly belonged there. With the Phantom, there is much more freedom and possibility, because I don't think that Erik will stay stuck in his psychotically possessive and potentially violent mode if he has nothing to fear from Christine (like abandonment, loss of love, etc.), and I think that they can learn and grow and make their lives whatever they wish them to be, without adherence to the mores of the time. In every time there are those who courageously choose a different destiny than those around them!

OK! :gettowork::watchclock:

:hugs: mopboyerik: :inlove: :kisswink:

Kimbo

Ok...wait a minute....just saw Jen's post as I was about to hit the "add reply" button...

ummmhummm...passion is GOOD...and yes! Erik and Christine loved each other on many levels!...scared of the Phantom after unmasking him??? I have to say that every time I watch that scene, I think that Emmy is grinning at Gerry, and enjoying his performance of how passionate he rages in the "prying Pandora" moment. The only time she ever really looks scared to me is when he is yelling at her late in the film ("Why? Why?") As Aminta...she is swept up in the moment, and hormones are raging in that adolescent body, baby! I agree about MOTN and Red Death, too. And I agree that both were immature, but the Phantom's learning curve would have been great with the love and devotion he craved...after all, "he is a genius, monsieur!" Christine's look of longing at the end spoke volumes, as far as I'm concerned--that she loves and pities him, and she is "twisted every way" in that thankless choice (between kinks and vanilla), but she is too young, immature, and weak to make the brave choice. If only I were Christine! Erik and I could move mountains together!!! **sigh**

Yikes! My 3pm client is here...!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am crazy to think that after Christine kissed the Phantom she actually wanted to stay with him. The way she looked at him it was almost a look of surprise. Then he turned her away. When she and Raoul were going away in the boat she looked back at the Phantom like she wasn't sure she should leave him.

I am sure I would be confused! No actually I would be diving out of the boat screaming "Erik come and get me and take me to your Swan bed." :tasty:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello to all! This is my first post in the forums and I am so glad you're here to discuss...I hope I'm posting this in the right place!

As Christine, I would have done the same and picked Raoul for many of the reasons that you suggest, DiamondDonna.

For myself, in our time, at my age *cough*justturnedforty*cough*, no question I'd let myself slip into those black gloved hands, *Hey baby, why don't ya wear that Don Juan getup tonight* :cunning:

But something that really makes me ponder is PONR in the movie.

May we please talk about the thoughts that are going through Erik and Christine's minds during the transitions in that scene?

First, she immediately knows that it is the Phantom (not Piangi) and she looks like she is in on a secret. :mopboyerik: Which he seems to share. Does anyone else notice right then? (Raoul, etc.)

So Erik sings the opera, clearly he has written it for the two of them to sing together, and he is seducing her. (I love how Gerry sings "firrrrre", whew, roll those r's baby!)

Does Erik believe that he will win her and that she will stay with him at this point?

I think I see a moment when he pauses ascending the stairs when he is asking himself, "Is she for real?" But I don't know if he is entirely sane at this point.

Then they get to the bridge and she is really belting out the song like she wants him, badly. Is she acting? Baiting him? What is her motivation? Is she losing her mind too? Ack! This part drives me crazy!!

When he sings what is essentially "the other man's" love song to her, he is pleading with her, "love ME", and I feel that he KNOWS it's not gonna happen even before she exposes him to the audience. But Christine probably doesn't know herself what she is doing at this moment. She is happy in his arms.

Is she comfortable because of the song? Because he is being gentle? Because she loves him?

Of course, she "wakes up" from her reverie and then...

The unmasking makes me think that she is just following through with "the plan" to capture the phantom, although she looks striken while doing it. He is obviously betrayed, "why? WHY?", man, that breaks my heart.

So, those are my musings of late. Is that too many questions? I may have to watch PONR another billion times just to clarify. Hmmmm, where is that DVD...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You all bring up so many great points.... when I have time, I will continue my character profiles, and then begin to speak more about the Phantom himself.

This is a great discussion ladies (and Gabriel, if you'd like to join in)

Swan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I think I would definalty choose Phantom over Raoul simply because I have always had a soft spot for really screwed up people with serious problems :shocked: and because I really love a challenge and Phantom would definatly be a challenge. I know I'm weird, but it's how I feel! :erikrose:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe I'll give Emmy's answer to this one: "A combination of them both." lol

Raoul is more the type of guy I think I need for my own psychological health, but The Phantom is more the type I'm drawn to. I love The Phantom; I always have, but I don't think it would be wise to start anything with him unless he had counseling or intervention of some sort. Unfortunately at this time his options would have been much more limited, and I'm not so sure love, Christine's or mine, would have been enough to help him to let go of his anger and change his violent ways. The idealistic part of me would like to believe it would, but the realistic part of me knows it's unlikely....

Wow what an ambiguous response.... :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

I would have picked the Phantom, because I know I'd have better chemistry overall with him than Raoul. C'mon, what gal isn't attracted to the bad-boy seductive rocker type? :kisswink: Of all the gals I know who've seen this movie, ALL of them said they would have chosen the Phantom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Choice Would Be The Phantom...Because He Taught Her To Sing & Was Her Angel Of Music...And Basically He Had Her First...My Full Emotions Goes Out To Him....Raoul Is Just A Homewrecker....The Phantom Had, Talent And He Gave Christine His Heart & Soul....What Did Raoul Do???

That's The Way I See It...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

From the point of view of this story (and if we consider certain people as those two characters), it is obvious that Eric would be the only choice. On the other hand, if you take it as "real" decision of the young girl, speaking pragmatically, would she be willing to live in the Liar for the whole life? What kind of future could Eric prepare for her? Or could she change him to go "among people"? On the second DVD of 2 disc version, ALW speaks about the music (or was it in another part of that disc, I do not know exactly and I do not have it here) he actually presented this problem as a decision between a career and a family. From this point of view it would not be so straightforward. It is true that Raoul loved her and could give here comfortable and respected life, family, but probably would not want her to be a signer any longer.... Life is sometimes difficult.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course, as “modern women”, we can continue, if Christine could have somehow managed both her career and family life. If those two parts are personified in two men, it seems impossible, but...

It sounds cruel, but if I were Christine I would probably have chosen to marry Raoul (it is true that he did not behave so well to her as to Don Juan, but at that point, both boys were quite jealous already and neither behaved really well), but would persuade him to help Eric. Because Eric did not love only Christine, but also music. And he was a genius in composing (and not only this). And here, Raoul could have really helped him. Raoul had money and knew the right people, he could have arranged for his music to be played more publicly, which would have brought more recognition to Eric (if nothing more, Eric might work for the Opera Populaire – compose the music, design costumes and stage settings, suggest some improvements of the building he knew so well). And if Eric already was a well-known composer, people probably would less mind his mask (at those times, plastic surgery was not so advanced, so if people were burned or otherwise injured on the face, they had to solve it like this anyway), and he might have found another love (especially if he was otherwise such a beautiful man we think of)... At least, he would not be so terribly lonely; he would have at least some friends to talk to.

But it would have to happen earlier - first, before they both became almost mad, and second, before Eric became in fact a criminal (before Eric “managed” to kill the first person or even burn down the opera house – well, it was not an intention, but if you let such a big chandelier fall down to the auditorium full of people, you must be aware of the fact that something might happen...). We all know how desperate he was, that if he could have been accepted “normally” by the others, he would have never done things like that, but he did it. The fact that he killed the man who abused him as a child would be probably statute-barred, after all, he probably was not legally responsible at that age anyway, but (if there was nobody else in-between) those two murders we saw in the musical would cause a serious problem for Eric if he wanted to live like a “normal” person and not to hide in his Lair from the rest of the world all his life (probably still better than be in a prison where the other prisoners might mind his face...)..

Well, but it would have been a different story and it would not have been so tragically-beautifully romantic...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I forgot to mention that there are some fans on Emmy's site forum that luv Gerry as the Phantom, too! One that got me giggling was the discussion going on in the "Don't Gerry and Emmy look like a couple" thread, where one person thinks that Raoul is such a girl! :rotflmao:http://www.emmyrossum.com/home.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awesome discussion! Here is my honest response:

If I were the woman I was when I was in my 20's, I would have chosen to marry Erik, no doubt. He is dark, mysterious, sexy, etc., all those good adjectives we already know. He's the consummate bad boy, and the type of man I was into in reality when I was younger. I always dated the bad boy, which always left me with a broken heart. However, if I were Christine, I don't think that Erik would have broken my heart so much as scared the hell out of me into staying with him.

Now that I'm in my 40's, I would have to say that I would probably choose to MARRY Raoul. Yes, he's too nice and a bit on the girlie side, but he won't treat me like crap. He would be faithful, and take care of me for the rest of my life. Now that I'm older, I would prefer to live in comfort and feel safe rather than have the dangerous life I would with Erik. The real fantasy woudl be to have Eirk with a bit of Raoul mixed in there. I may not have the sexual fullfillment that I would like, but that's what fantasies are for, and I would probably always dream about Erik anyway.

That being said, if I could have only ONE NIGHT with one of them, it would definitely be Erik.

Lisa

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is my sincere response:

Erik may be very seductive and hypnotic but I am not sure whether a solid relationship with him is possible at all. He has many issues. So for stable relationship Raoul is the best choice. But Erik will always be my deepest darkest fantasy. He will always be the bad boy whom I will always desire but can never have. Even though I will be living comfortably with Raoul it will always be Erik who will invade my thoughts and dreams. What a life I will lead!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it's taking me longer to type this response than to even make my decision.

Phantom all the way!!!

Raoul was an interloper, annoying and really, he comes right in and takes over..yes, Erik has his issues and his temper, but all in all, Erik is who I'd choose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would choose the Phantom not because it was Gerry playing him but for me I see people like Patrick Wilson's character Raoul to be stuck up and not care about anyone but themselves. Even though the Phantom had issues it was not fault he became that way. He became that way because of the way that people like Raoul treated him and its not fair. This treatment is still going on today by people like us and it is cruel. That is why I always tell my mom I dont care how I look I dont care what people think Im just a human being. It should not matter what a person looks like or what they wear or what they think. God did not want us to be that way...he wanted us to love eachother no matter how we look.

Paige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, everybody should be loved by somebody. I do not think Eric wanted to be a “pitiful creature of darkness”, he wanted to be accepted and respected by other people, but after his experience from childhood (even his own mother denying him, then the cage in Gipsy fair...) he probably did not dare to address anybody else (except for Ms. Giry, but she probably was too “cold” to become a real friend/companion to him – actually, their relation is a mystery, probably not only to me) and just had the “if they do not like me, let them be scared of me” feeling, so he became the Phantom - and Christine became more his dream of others accepting him. Christine could have helped him a lot if she was a little bit more mature (and courageous – sometimes Eric did look quite scary, but he loved her and would not hurt her) and did not just cry and pity him, but started to talk to him more “normally” (for example, when she was giving him the mask back in the Lair, but it is true that Eric must have frightened her a lot by his outburst). Maybe Eric would have appreciated them becoming “just friends”, or became something like a father to her. What I really do not understand is her behaviour at the end of the Point of No Return. She already knew that there was a problem with his face and that he was very sensitive to this and really did not want the other people to see him unmasked. So why did she put his mask down in front of full auditorium of people, if she liked him? She must have realized how much she was hurting him (and how outraged he might become). But even from that scene, I think she was too young to became a real partner to Eric. I would probably prefer to see somebody more mature with Eric. Christine was too young, Eric was too much fixed to her, I am not sure it would work out well. For Christine, Raoul would fit better. But I would not like Eric to stay alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have read some comments from the first part of this discussion only later on, I am sorry, so I would like to comment only now to two things I also thought of when seeing the POTO (I mean the film version):

The MONKEY MUSIC BOX was, as I understand it, more a kind of substitute for a friend for Eric. When he was a boy, he made a similar toy when he was in a cage in a Gipsy fair (maybe the real monkey that was seen on the shot from the fair was the only creature that treated him “decently” and did not beat him, did not laugh at him). Later on, when he was in the Lair, knew how to make things and had some possibilities of getting materials for them (he must have had a lot of hiding places from where he unrecognized observed people in workshops, singers rehearsing, and learned by that, from time to time took some old props, in such a big house, nobody probably even noticed), he created this sophisticated music box. (Actually, from this point of view, the life story of Eric in the book seems more believable, I cannot imagine somebody living like that for 20 - 30 years!) In the scene at the end, he seems to speak to the music box – I am afraid he really did not have a real person to talk to (if Mme Giry was not this person). That is why he was so desperate and also why he even did not know how to communicate with real people. He did not know anything else than the opera house and the way characters behave in operas, that is why he was so theatrical.

PONR (ripping the mask off): I think that if Christine wanted to warn and save Eric, she might have it done differently (but in case of such a young girl, you never know...). This way was too humiliating for Eric. He tried to hide his face so carefully that ripping the mask off must have been for him something like if they let him stay totally naked in front of full audience – he must have felt really terrible. During the Point of No Return, there were moments when the two were close enough, so she could have whispered a few words of warning, or somehow discreetly point at the policeman that was seen for both when they were staying on a bridge, if she really wanted to save him... It almost looked like she wanted to show Eric to the others (but, at the same time, felt sorry for Eric; that is why the tears appeared). As Don Juan, he was masked, theoretically the audience might not have noticed that there was a different person in this role (but only if they were completely blind and deaf – Eric and Piangi were so much different from each other...), and if they noticed, they did not know who it is and why the change happened (it was a totally new opera, nobody knew it, there might have been an intention to have two people playing the same role, Piangi might have had some problems with his voice – well, he had them in general – and had to be substituted by an understudy...). I do not think anybody knew when and how the Phantom would appear. They just assumed that he would be there, that is why the policemen were everywhere. Christine was at that time quite confused, if she loved or at least liked Raoul as well, as she already knew that Eric hates Raoul and might kill him, so both were endangered and there was a question who should be saved.... At one moment of the song, she looked at Raoul as if she asked him for help (and Raoul reacted by sending the policemen immediately somewhere), she would not have done it if she primarily wanted to save Eric, I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

It is hard to fathom myself with either, but in my mind whole heartedly I imagine Erik with Meg and Christine with Raoul.

I find Raoul heroic, handsome and selfless.

I see Christine as an orphan wanting nothing more than a normal life with a normal man. Also to me after all that the Phantom did to deceive Christine. I cannot accept a romance with him and Christine. I believe in all honesty and this may be a very unpopular opinion that Raoul loved Christine more than Erik did. I believed they loved each other since they were children and they played together.

I find the Phantom tortured, intriguing and talented.

In my heart I see Meg as way more adventurous even tomboyish and willing to take on the challenge of the mysterious, tortured genius. To help him become the man he really is deep inside past all the hurt and obsession. I see Erik evolving more as a man and less a phantom day, by day, first of all by knowing the joys of the flesh and unconditional love. Something he was long deprived of.

Now, I suppose if I lived in the 19th century and I didn't have Hubby, was beautiful and talented enough to be wanted by both men. I would be torn between the two. Raoul with his kindness, manners and gallant behavior would make me swoon, but I being a champion of the underdog and tortured and never one to care about material things or looks I would probably choose a life with the Phantom, but then again I don't know if I could live with a murderer so I would truly be torn. I suppose in fiction I could, but in real life no.

I don't know if I am more of a Meg or a Christine or if Hubby is more of a Raoul or a Phantom. That is why I am so torn. Because in everything romantic my heart turns only towards my Hubby so I have to relate it back to us. In truth I think we are somewhere in the middle. I am very thankful I did not have to make that choice in real life.

Gosh I hope that makes sense.

Love,

Tracy

P. S. I may not have answered this in the proper way meant for this thread if not feel free to edit, delete or whatever. I cannot think of Erik without Meg. The way the movie ended broke my heart. I cannot believe she did not run after him. That is my only solace for my pain for that broken hearted man. He did not die alone. I will not believe that. I can't.

Edited by JustCallMeTracy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Wow- this is a tough question. To live in the real world with a handsome, rich husband or live in a dungeon with a hot, sexy and slightly demented man. I guess it's so hard to choose because this isn't real life. So, in that case, I choose the Phantom because he's Gerry. Who wouldn't want to spend their life with him? :phantom2:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll take the cute but psycho one anyday! PHANTOM!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, staying with a dangerous, mysterious, masked bloke is not a very logical descision. But who wants to be logical around a hot and seductive guy. So it is the :donjuan: for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, no matter who is playing the Phantom, any man who'd threaten to murder my childhood friend and fiance right before my eyes just to force me completely kills any hope of a loving relationship.

And, if I did have to stay with him after an ultimatum like that, his deformity and the angry mob would be the least of his problems. I'd be out for revenge every day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...